I Need a Foolproof Cheesecake Recipe

Photo by Travis Rainey, Food Styling by Shilpa Uskokovic, Prop Styling Alexandra Massillon

ON THIS WEEK’S episode of Dinner SOS, test kitchen director and host Chris Morocco hands the feed back over to senior test kitchen editors Shilpa Uskokovic and Jesse Szewczyk, who introduce us to the next BA Bake Club recipe: Tiramisu Basque Cheesecake.

Why a Basque cheesecake, you might ask? Basque cheesecakes are not only delicious and impressive (that charred top!), but also surprisingly foolproof. They’re less fussy and far easier to make than a traditional New York–style cheesecake. (No water bath required!) This one has the added bonus of tasting just like tiramisu, with the mascarpone, marsala, cocoa, and coffee making it that much more delicious. The best of both worlds!

Jesse and Shilpa walk us through the recipe and explain things like what is the actual difference between a Basque cheesecake and, say, a regular New York–style cheesecake. They go on to answer listener questions about essential ingredients and equipment and wrap it all up with their segment, Ask a Baker, where they tackle your toughest chocolate chip cookie questions.

Listen now to hear how our BA Bake Club members conquered the recipe and hear a sneak peak at what’s to come next month!

Shilpa Uskokovic: I am Shilpa Uskokovic.

Jesse Szewczyk: And I'm Jesse Szewczyk.

SU: We're both senior test kitchen editors at Bon Appétit.

JS: And this is BA Bake Club.

SU: Bake Club is Bon Appétit's book club but for baking.

JS: We are creating the nerdiest and most wholesome corner of the baking internet.

SU: Now, as part of BA Bake Club, every month we publish a recipe on bonappetit.com that introduces a baking concept that we think you should know.

JS: This month, everyone baked your Tiramisu Basque Cheesecake.

SU: I love this recipe. Basque cheesecakes are really good, festive desserts for our Bake Clubbers to know and love since they're relatively unfussy and much easier to make than a traditional New York-style cheesecake. This one has the added bonus of tasting just like tiramisu with the mascarpone, marsala, cocoa, and coffee that makes this version of the cheesecake that much more delicious.

JS: I also love this, but before we dive any deeper, do you want to give a rough overview of this recipe?

SU: Of course. First, I make a mixture of instant espresso powder, cocoa powder, and hot water just to dissolve it. Then I put that to the side and make the batter. It has cream cheese, sugar, flour, salt, vanilla, eggs, mascarpone, heavy cream, and also a little splash of marsala wine, or one could use dark rum as well. Then I paddle it in a stand mixer. If you don't have a stand mixer, you could also use a hand mixer.

I'm looking for a very creamy texture when I blend this with the sugar dissolved and all the dairy very smooth. Then I take half of that batter and mix it into the espresso mixture from earlier, so I essentially have two flavors of the batter. Then I alternate scoops from each bowl into a parchment-lined springform pan, trying to recreate a marble look, but without being too fussy. Finally, I'll bake the cheesecake until it's very brown on top, but still jiggly in the center. Then I refrigerate it until it's cooled and set, top with a spiked mascarpone whipped cream and a dusting of cocoa powder and syrup.

JS: Okay, so there's a couple of things we should talk about for this recipe. First of all, what is the actual difference between a Basque cheesecake and, say, a regular New York-style cheesecake?

SU: I think there are a few differences between a Basque cheesecake and a New York-style cheesecake. One, I think is the lack of crust. Basque cheesecake typically doesn't have any crust while a New York cheesecake has a graham cracker crust that's typically in the bottom or sometimes comes slightly up the sides. The second difference is texture. I think a Basque cheesecake is much more creamier, almost loose in the center, whereas a New York cheesecake, I think, is set from edge to edge.

JS: It's also not made in a water bath, right?

SU: That's true. That's also a great difference to call out, and I think it's one of the things that makes Basque cheesecake super easy to make, not requiring a water bath. You don't have to fuss and fiddle with a roasting pan of hot water and making sure that it comes halfway up the sides, which I honestly can never measure or gauge.

JS: It's scary, yeah.

SU: Then you have to transfer the pan to the oven without spilling this hot water on yourself.

JS: And do a squat, yeah.

SU: Yes, so I think those are the big differences in my mind between a Basque cheesecake and a regular New York-style, the lack of crust, the texture, and the lack of a water bath.

JS: So, why did you want to make a Basque-style cheesecake instead of, say, a regular one for Bake Club?

SU: I love cheesecake, but I do hate the fuss. I've used water. I've developed recipes that call for water baths, but it isn't a fun experience for anyone.

JS: It's kind of scary.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: You have to juggle this thing wobbling over, and you never know whether you're supposed to pour the water after the pan is in the oven.

JS: Yeah, there's no good way. Yeah.

SU: Do you pour it before, and then you walk to the oven? I just felt like you get all of the same things that you want from a cheesecake. It's creamy. It's dense. It's rich. It's festive but without all this fuss. You're not really missing anything from a New York-style cheesecake that Basque isn't giving you.

JS: Sure. Because you're not using a water bath, how is a Basque cheesecake different? How does that affect the texture or the color?

SU: Oh, yeah. I think maybe a way to answer the question is to think about the textures or the desired texture from each. With the New York-style cheesecake and the reason we use a water bath is because we want a very even, soft, creamy texture from edge to edge. It's perfectly smooth and set.

JS: Not much color.

SU: Not much color on top.

JS: Yeah.

SU: That's a good point.

JS: Or the sides, yeah.

SU: But on a Basque cheesecake, you do want a contrast. Ideally, you want a contrast in textures, you want the center to be a bit softer and the edges to be a bit more set. Perhaps the most important and defining feature of a Basque cheesecake is the presence of a top crust. It has a very burnished top crust, and this is possible only because it's baked at a very high temperature. Having a water bath would interfere with that process.

JS: Because it makes a steamy oven.

SU: Yes.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Exactly.

JS: Yeah, and I feel like oftentimes they're called burnt Basque cheesecakes online.

SU: Yes.

JS: So that makes sense.

SU: Yes.

JS: Yeah. You say that the cream cheese and the mascarpone in this recipe need to be room temperature. Why is this important?

SU: Essentially, this is for any cheesecake, but we want a batter to be very smooth. The cream cheese and mascarpone, but more importantly, the cream cheese is susceptible to holding on to lumps and bumps if it's not fully room temp. I like to bring it out to room temp, though I have also in a pinch taken it out of the wrapper and then put it in the microwave. My microwave has a soften cream cheese function, which is great, or you can just do short bursts at 50% power.

JS: Sure.

SU: I think that really just helps make a very smooth batter without the need to aggressively beat it.

JS: Which, why wouldn't you want to do that?

SU: Because essentially, air is kind of the enemy of a cheesecake. As we discussed before, the ideal texture of a cheesecake is very dense and creamy, and incorporating too much air would make it light, but not in the way that you really expect. Also, these air bubbles in a cheesecake make it dry. When you eat it, it eats dry. Air in a cake batter, desirable, but air in a cheesecake batter, not really desirable, so by bringing it to room temp, you reduce the amount of time you spend whipping the batter to remove lumps.

JS: What about the eggs and the heavy cream? Do they need to be room temperature?

SU: Ideally, yes, but see, this is never me. Well, yeah, I guess I am thinking ahead to put the cream cheese out. I don't know why I never thought about putting the eggs and heavy cream out, but I don't know. I never take eggs out ahead of time.

JS: It's less risky.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Also, they're like liquid ingredients. They incorporate fairly easily. I also never bring the eggs out to room temp when I make cakes or cookies, which is probably a bad thing, but it's worked for me so far.

JS: Sometimes I just put them in a bowl of hot water-

SU: Hot water.

JS: ... for, I don't know, a minute.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah. I'm like, "Good enough." Is that why you call for a medium-low speed mix on the ingredients, the same reasons as to not incorporate air?

SU: Oh, yeah, exactly. I want the lowest speed possible to get everything combined, but not build too much air. Honestly, this recipe, when I made it at home, I generally make it in a food processor.

JS: Really?

SU: Yeah, I think it's-

JS: You just throw everything in?

SU: Just throw everything in. I just think a food processor is way more effective because of the blade and the cutting motion. I think it incorporates and makes things much smoother with much less risk of incorporating any air. But the reason I ended up calling for a stand mixer in this recipe is because you need a decent-sized food processor. You need a minimum 14-

JS: The big one.

SU: ... 12 to 14-up capacity.

JS: Sure.

SU: I know not a lot of us have this, so just to be on the safe side, I called for a stand mixer, and I asked to be mixed at medium-low speed.

JS: What about a blender?

SU: Oh. No, I think a blender-

JS: Too crazy.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Too much air.

SU: Too much air.

JS: Yeah, yeah, like whip it.

SU: I think you could use an immersion blender like the handheld-

JS: That's smart, yeah.

SU: ... immersion blender.

JS: Yeah.

SU: That would recreate the same kind of effect as a food processor and not incorporate as much air as a regular blender. Yeah, that's a good question.

Jesse, do you have any strong memories or associations with either cheesecake or tiramisu?

JS: Okay, so I haven't told you this. I don't like either. I love this recipe, but I-

SU: You don't like either? Wow.

JS: No, I really dislike cheesecake, and I really dislike tiramisu.

SU: You're really very [inaudible 00:09:22] here.

JS: It just goes to show you how good this recipe is because I really do love eating this, and I would take it home every time you made it from start to finish and fully enjoy it. Typically, I don't, but I do think I like the Basque of it all way more than I like a traditional cheesecake. I think the texture of a traditional cheesecake I don't love.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah, what about you?

SU: It's too creamy.

JS: Yeah. I don't know. It's too much, too dense, too edge to edge just density.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: That's a good point that you brought up because there is something about that burnt top of a Basque cheesecake. I think that caramel edge contrasts with the bland smoothness-

JS: Totally.

SU: ... of the inside, and it creates a different nuance to your eating experience.

JS: Yeah.

SU: I do understand what you're saying.

JS: You brought a lot of bitter flavors to this, which I think really I liked a lot.

SU: Yes.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Some of the bitter flavors I brought to the testing process were certainly unintentional.

JS: What?

SU: Do you remember the first time? Do you remember the first time I baked it? It was smoking when it came out.

JS: Oh, okay. I do remember this.

SU: When I pulled it out of the oven, it was coal black and smoking around the edges, and I was like, "No, it's called the burnt Basque cheesecake."

JS: Yeah, we're like, "Oh! Okay."

SU: I really tried to be smooth about it, but it didn't really work that well.

JS: Okay, so going back to the smoking cheesecake out of the oven, I recall that this was a long testing process. Am I right?

SU: Oh, Jesse, I thought you were going to be like, "No."

JS: It wasn't as long as the pizza, but it was long.

SU: Yeah, it was long for ... Now that I think about it, for the not silliest reason, but getting the cheesecake part, getting the right ratio of ingredients and stuff that was easy and fast because it was fairly standard, the amount of cream cheese to eggs. But I remember what tripped me up was actually how to incorporate the tiramisu flavors in there.

JS: Interesting.

SU: I knew from the beginning that I had to cut the cream cheese with mascarpone because I wanted that to be ... That's an iconic flavor of tiramisu, but the part that really held me back was how do I incorporate the swirl.

JS: I remember this. You started when just it added to it-

SU: Yes. I just-

JS: ... all together.

SU: I just mixed the cocoa powder and the espresso powder and the marsala into the batter.

JS:It made it quite like a fleshy, off-foundation color.

SU: Thanks, Jesse. That's a horrible visual, but yes, it's true. That's exactly the feedback I got that it was very fleshy.

JS: Yeah, it was.

SU: Ew, that's such a gross word. It visually just wasn't sitting right, and then I was like, "Oh, let me swirl it in." Then I was like, "Do I need to be precise? Do I need to split the batter equally?" Then I realized it doesn't matter. As long as I have the set amount of the cocoa powder and the espresso powder, it doesn't really matter how much of the plain batter I add to it, as long as that is going into the final result. Actually, if you do an uneven split, and if you only put, let's say, one-third of the vanilla batter into the cocoa espresso mixture, it'll actually be more concentrated, and you'll probably get a deeper contrast between the vanilla and coffee batters.

I think another thing that took a long time with this recipe was probably the bake time. Speaking about the smoking cheesecake, I think initially I was going by the visual of color. I was chasing a really, really dark crust on top. Maybe not quite to the extent of the smoking one-

JS: Not black.

SU:... from the beginning, but I wanted a very caramelized top crust.

JS: Sure.

SU: In doing so, I was leaving the cheesecake in for a good amount of time, and the end result was the texture was a bit off. The color was beautiful. It was really dark mahogany color, but when I cut in, the edges were kind of curdled, and it wasn't as creamy as I imagined.

JS: Because a Basque is a different texture.

SU: Yes.

JS: It's a bit softer.

SU: Yes.

JS: You write in your head note, "It's weeping like a ripe wheel of soft cheese."

SU: I did.

JS: It is good.

SU: Oh, it was so poetic. Yeah, it is like a brie cheese. It's very soft and melting in the center.

JS: Yeah.

SU: It has a crust around the edges, but not like a hard crust, but just a more defined crust that gives way to a soft, tender inside. That's when I realized that I'm using the wrong indicator for doneness. Rather than going by color, what I should be doing is looking just like how you would look for any other custard, at the jiggliness of the final product. Once I accepted that it was not about the color as much as it's about the texture and finding and solving for that is when the process was so much easier, and I wrapped up in, I don't know, one or two tries after that.

JS: Because it's like the top is here or there. It's not a high risk, but the center, you want to be something specific.

SU: Exactly.

JS: The last thing we wanted to address was something that a couple of you wrote in to tell us, and that is that this is not the cheapest bake, especially since the price of things like dairy and eggs can fluctuate a lot, and, right now, they're pretty high.

SU: Yes, certainly. I am glad that we're talking about it, and I think we should acknowledge this. There is a lot of cream cheese and eggs and mascarpone in here. Maybe this is a good time to talk about our own development process.

JS: Yeah, we didn't know about the eggs.

SU: Exactly. We had no idea or indication that egg prices would be what they are today, and we are recording this in February. I developed this recipe, I don't know. I buttoned this up-

JS: Summer?

SU: Yes.

JS: Yeah.

SU: I think I buttoned this up in September.

JS: It was a different time, yeah.

SU: Completely different time.

JS: This was Brat Summer. The vibes were different.

SU: We just didn't know. That's how it works behind the scenes. We develop a recipe months in advance. We plan for a recipe months, sometimes even a year, in advance, honestly. Listen, I want to say, ultimately, baking is a luxury. If this is a recipe that some of us need to sit out, that's fine. For those of you who have baked along with us, thank you for doing so.

We are going to take a quick break.

JS: When we're back, we'll answer some questions from Bake Clubbers about essential ingredients and equipment.

SU: Welcome back to BA Bake Club.

JS: Shilpa, we got a bunch of great listener questions about this recipe, so are you ready?

SU: Okay, I can try to be ready.

JS: Okay. Our first question is about cream cheese, and it's from Ayarie who writes, "We can't get the bar type of cream cheese here in the Netherlands. Would it work with spreadable cream cheese? I wonder what the Spaniards are using to make this."

SU: Well, it turns out the Spaniards are using also Philadelphia block cream cheese. The original recipe, or at least the place where it's credited to have originated is this restaurant called La Viña in Spain. Our sources say that even La Viña uses Philadelphia Cream Cheese. Perhaps there's an older, more traditional version that uses some other kind of cheese, and I don't know the answer to that.

Okay, let's break down this question. Would it work with spreadable cream cheese?

JS: I'm going to say no.

SU: Me too. Me too, and here's the reason why. Let's talk about what spreadable cream cheese is. Spreadable cream cheese has things added to it to make it spreadable. Depending on the brand, it could be acids or gums or whey. Then it's also sometimes whipped. All of it changes the way it behaves in your final recipe, so I think that, in turn, could upset the way your cheesecake behaves, make a runnier end result. As far as substitutes, I don't know, I think it could be any other soft, creamy cheese which has the same sort of fat content. I actually wonder how it would be with a nice brie.

JS: What?

SU: Why not?

JS: That's crazy.

SU: You don't think it's going to be good?

JS: I have no idea.

SU: Or a goat cheese?

JS: Goat cheese, I feel like I'm less shocked by. I want you to make one now because I'm fascinated by the concept.

SU: Yeah, I think it'd be good.

JS: With berries, mm.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Okay, so conclusion, try not to use the spreadable cream cheese. We live in America. If anybody else in Europe is listening and you have good feedback to us about what could be a possible substitute for bar-type cream cheese, call in.

JS: Yeah, it's a tough one. Some people ask about homemade cream cheese. Okay, got it.

SU: At that point, just get them spreadable cream cheese. I don't know. There's just too much variation.

JS: Sure.

SU: I don't know what your cream cheese is at home. First of all, the fact that you're making homemade cream cheese, whoever you are-

JS: That's pretty cool.

SU: ... that's awesome. Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Let us know how to do that. Yeah, that's one too many variables for me as a tester to account for.

JS: That makes sense.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Our next question is from Gail who writes, "I can't find my larger springform pan, but I have a nine-inch pan. Do you think I'll be okay using that one?"

SU: Yeah, this is a great question. I think it's come up a couple times. In the recipe, I called for a 10-inch springform pan because it does make ... There's a lot of batter in this recipe. I think I'm using two pounds of cream cheese, so there is a lot of batter to fit into a pan. If you only have a smaller pan, like a nine-inch, totally okay to use that. What you might want to do is reduce the amount of batter that you add into your nine-inch pan.

What I like to do in general, not just for Basque cheesecake, but even for cakes for instance, I try not to fill the pan more than three-quarters full. I like to leave a little head space for the batter to expand. So, you can pour enough batter in your nine-inch springform to come about three-quarters or slightly shy of three-quarters up the way, and if you have excess batter, just pour it into a smaller tin or custard cups, and then you can bake them separately in the same oven at the same temperature, but you'll have to just pull them out earlier.

JS: Yeah. One of our Bake Clubbers, Banu, actually did this with little muffin tins, and made little ...

SU: That's fun.

JS: Yeah, so it worked great.

SU: That's a cute little baker's treat.

JS: Could you cut the recipe in half and use a springform, say six-inch or five-inch or a little tiny one?

SU: Yeah, I think you could. You could easily cut this in half. I have to say this, shout out to joyofbaking.com, which has this page, pan size conversion. I always use it.

JS: You've mentioned this to me a million times.

SU: Yes! It's such a helpful page. It's such a helpful resource, and I always go onto that page and look it up because I think it's so nicely arranged. The pan sizes are divided by type, square, round, rectangle, and then it gives the dimensions and also the capacity, which I think that's the important thing. You need to know what the capacity of a 10-inch spring form is, and then you need to see what the corresponding capacity of a six-inch pan is.

JS: Because the math gets weird.

SU: Yes, the math gets weird. Anyway, Joy of Baking pan conversion sizes has saved my life many times, and I highly recommend anybody cutting recipes in half or scaling up or otherwise looking for pan conversions to look up that page.

JS: Next question comes from Michelle who writes, "In the recipe photo, the top of the cheesecake looks almost burnt, but in your walkthrough video, the top is this lovely golden brown. Is the degree of browning on the top a personal preference, or do you cook to the point that it is done and however brown on the top is, deal with it?"

SU: Michelle answered the question, and we spoke about this earlier and how this was one of my biggest struggles in developing the recipe. Turns out that it's better to look at the texture rather than the color. The way to know when to pull it out is when the cooking time suggested in the recipe, when you're close to it, you pull the pan out of the oven and you shake the pan lightly. Then it should jiggle in the center, like just set jello. A good two inches in the center should wobble like that, and it will look very scary.

It'll look like, oh, my God, there's no way this can set. But when you pull it out at that point is when you get a really nice texture after it's been chilled. In the recipe photo, it was a different oven. The oven was running hotter, and also I left it in a little bit longer because I wanted a sturdy cheesecake when I cut it for the photo, so it did get a little dark. In the walkthrough, I did it according to doneness, and I did it according to the jiggle test, which is why it's a much more pale golden brown. But in both situations, I think they taste great, and regardless, I would go with the doneness test rather than the color test.

JS: Sure. What about cracking? Is that an issue on top?

SU: Oh, yeah, that's interesting. That's never really cracked, this cheesecake for me. None of my tests. I think it's because of how careful we are with mixing the batter.

JS: Yeah, not adding too much air to it.

SU: Yeah, and also it's a fairly loose batter. It won't-

JS: Yeah, it's flowy.

SU: Yeah, exactly. Oh, that's a good word, flowy.

JS: Yeah.

SU: It won't trap as much air, so it does puff and fall, but it doesn't trap enough air that it would crack. Yeah.

JS: That makes sense.

SU: Which is typically why cheesecakes crack.

JS: Sure. Our next question is from Mariah who writes, "I'm going to make it for a party tomorrow. Does it matter if I make it today or tomorrow? What would be best?"

SU: Honestly, you could do either. I think it's great to make it the day ahead or even two days ahead. This cheesecake holds very well, and I think, though I like to eat it, here's the part where it gets a little annoying at least on my end. I like to eat this cheesecake at room temp, but I like to eat it after it's been refrigerated.

JS: Okay, got it.

SU: So I bake it, refrigerate it because I think it does something, it sets it up in a nice way, and then bring it back down to room temperature, which I know is annoying, so you don't have to do that. Regardless, I would say the answer to the question is this cheesecake really lends itself very well to being made ahead.

JS: There's a lot of conversations about people saying how they love the texture the day after.

SU: Yes.

JS: Yes, so that makes sense.

SU: Also, I think more than the texture, it's a big part, but also the flavor changes and deepens and intensifies after it's been refrigerated overnight. I think the whole coffee and marsala in the batter permeates more evenly, and it tastes much more intensely like a tiramisu than if you bake and eat it on the same day.

JS: That makes sense.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Next up from Meg, "My mascarpone whip ended up looking like cottage cheese, so we served it on the side. I think my mascarpone wasn't quite room temperature. Was that the culprit?"

SU: Okay. I have to say I have run into this problem myself, and I know in our Instagram Close Friends group, a few people have run into the same problem. I think essentially if your mascarpone looks like cottage cheese, that means it's over-whipped. I realize that mascarpone cheese has this tendency to very easily over-whip.

JS: Interesting.

SU: One thing I've found is go by visual cue, like when you're making the mascarpone whipped cream. I think in the recipe I say about four minutes, and then again, this might be a good time to peek behind the curtain a little bit about a recipe writing process. For anything that's less than five minutes, we have to say about one minute or two minutes or three minutes. So, when I say about, it's generally a range, and yours could be done at one minute or two. All of that comes down to the temperature of the ingredients, the type of mascarpone.

JS:What kind of mixer are you using.

SU: Yes, exactly. I would say go by visual cue here. If it looks like cottage cheese, it's likely over-whipped. To revive it, you can always add a splash of heavy cream in there and then whisk it a few times, and that'll kind of loosen it back up.

JS: That's good to know. Shilpa, what about whipping by hand? Because I love whipping things by hand.

SU: You do?

JS: Well, cream, not egg whites. I'm not crazy. So what about that?

SU: Yes, I think in this particular case, I think that would actually work really well.

JS: I think so too.

SU: Yeah, because there isn't that much cream to whip, so it could be achievable and might also offer you a degree of control-

JS: Totally.

SU: ... that you might lose with the mixer. Yeah, definitely whip it by hand.

JS: I like that. Finally, from Regina, I forgot the cream and the batter, but it still tasted pretty good, so what would the cream have added?

SU: Well, there's so much dairy in this Basque cheesecake that I'm sure a little bit of cream was not missed, but I think more than flavor, the cream adds to the texture. Cream is much lighter and more liquid rather than cream cheese and mascarpone, so it really lightens the batter and it makes it much more, to borrow a word that you used, flowy. It makes it flowy and lighter and much, sorry, but creamier. The cream makes it creamier ... who would've thought ... than if you didn't put it.

JS: Sure. Does it contribute to that band in the middle, like the soft cheese band, do you think?

SU: Oh, yeah, definitely because it makes the batter a little bit more liquid. Otherwise, it'll be a much more dense cheesecake without it.

JS: That makes sense.

SU: Bakers, thank you so much for baking this along with us this month. It's been so lovely to see all of your pictures of your beautiful Tiramisu Basque Cheesecake and to hear all of your questions.

JS: Yeah, it's just always so cool and also surprising how everyone makes these recipes in their real lives, and we love to see it.

SU: We are going to take one more break.

JS: When we get back, we're going to finish up with our favorite segment, Ask a Baker.

Welcome back to BA Bake Club. Shilpa, it's time for our favorite segment, Ask a Baker.

SU: Yes. This is the segment where we get to answer your toughest baking questions. This month's question comes from Justine, and Justine says, "I need help with chocolate chip cookies. I am on the hunt for the perfect soft and chewy cookie, but just can't seem to get it right. It doesn't matter which recipe I follow or the many techniques I've tried. I can't tell you how many times I've Googled different techniques. My cookies never seem to come out right. My issues range from one, not spreading properly and either being lumps of undercooked dough or lumps of cakey cookies, and two, spreading properly, but not cooking well. Think cookies that look done on the top, but the bottoms are hollow and undercooked.

I have tried different sugar ratios based on advice that brown sugar makes for a chewier cookie. I've tried shaping them differently into more cone shapes based on one recipe's advice and shaped into upright logs based on suggestions from another recipe. Neither seem to work. I've tried different pans, parchment, no parchment, I weighed my ingredients instead of going by cup measurements. They still don't come out the way I want them to. I feel like a classic chocolate chip cookie should be easy and if not easy at first, easy to master, and once you get it right, you always get it right. I don't want it to be so hard."

JS: Okay, a lot to unpack here.

SU: Justine. Justine. Justine. The good news is Jesse's here to answer your questions, and he has written a cookie book for everyone listening, so you know you're in good hands.

JS: Well, my first thought immediately was, "I already know the issue. The issue is that you're measuring your flour wrong," so it's fascinating to me to hear that you've also weighed your ingredients. Because when I hear of a cookie that has a spread or a puck issue, the first thing is typically that you scoop into a bag of flour and you compact it instead of weighing it.

SU: Like you're dipping your cup into the flour bag.

JS: Yes, instead of daintily, spooning and leveling it off. So, if you're weighing it, good, or if you're spooning and leveling it-

SU: Leveling the surface.

JS: Yeah, good. Other things could be, I know that temperature, as it pertains to spread, is another major issue, and so many people come to me and say like, "Jesse, is it better to chill my cookie dough? Because I hear everyone say, it's so much taster if you chill it." And I'm like, "What does the recipe say?"

SU: You are very passionate about that.

JS: I wouldn't mess with the shape or the temperature of a dough unless the recipe says so. I wouldn't go Googling for solutions. I would look for solutions within the recipe or find a different recipe.

SU: Got it.

JS: But it really sounds to me like a flour issue here.

SU: Interesting.

JS: I'm curious what you think, Shilpa.

SU: For a moment, especially after reading that Justine has tried to use a scale and weighed her ingredients, now I'm wondering if it's something to do with the oven temperature and her oven itself.

JS: Her specific ... Could be.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Because when reading the cookies look done on top, but the bottoms are hollow and undercooked, I'm wondering if the oven is just running a bit hotter.

JS: Or it could be on convection.

SU: Oh, yeah.

JS: That's another huge thing that happens.

SU: Could be convection with the fan on.

JS: Yeah, convection is an oven in which it blows really hot air, so the exterior of your items will brown and cook much faster than the interior. In the case of cookies, you'll have beautifully browned cookies that are actually undercooked. Yeah, so check your oven. Usually, you can toggle that on and off if it does have that function.

SU: Oh, the convection function.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Okay, yeah.

JS: But never bake on convection unless your recipe states, which I don't think a recipe ever really would, but yeah.

SU: Do you agree with the statement that Justine made that brown sugar makes for a chewier cookie?

JS: Complicated. I think overall, yes, there's merits to that. Sure.

SU: What is the biggest factor that decides if a cookie is chewy or not?

JS: The amount it's baked, frankly.

SU: Oh, okay.

JS: I think a key thing with cookie baking is that you need to take this cookie out of the oven before it looks perfectly done because it will continue to firm up and "cook on this sheet tray" so much more than you expect. Yeah, so when your cookie comes out of the oven, it's going to be soft. If you touch it, it will leave an indent of your finger. It's going to feel like it's just barely cooked, and that's when you want to take them out. If you wait until they're beautifully golden brown and they look photo-ready, they're going to be overcooked.

SU: That's such a good point. Okay.

JS: Yeah, so if this oven is also running hot, you've to really keep an eye on them. I guess big takeaways is don't mess with your recipe. Not to be shameless pluggy here, but I have a brown butter chocolate chip cookie on Epicurious, which is pretty easy. You don't need a mixer. That's a good one to start with, just double-check your weighing your flour properly, keep an eye on how long you bake them, and double-check that your oven is not convection. Also, maybe invest in an oven thermometer too. Yeah.

SU: Those are all great tips, Jesse. Justine, I hope you make cookies and report back to us.

That's it for this month's edition of BA Bake Club.

JS: Shilpa, do you want to talk a little bit about next month's bake club recipe?

SU: Okay. This is a recipe for cake. My favorite thing to bake. I absolutely love cake, and it's a pistachio cake. It's actually a bundt cake specifically. I know I hate to talk about ingredients or food as being trendy.

JS: Like a hot thing.

SU: Yeah, but I think pistachio is really having a moment, so it's a pistachio bundt cake. It's a very dense and tender cake. It's solid.

JS: It has a pound cake quality to it almost, yeah.

SU: Yes, thank you. It has pound cake. Meanwhile, I was like, "This feels like a cake that goes to the gym."

JS: What?

SU: It's muscular.

JS: Sure, sure, sure.

SU: It's hefty, but you're like, "It's a pound ... Yes, that's right.

JS: Yeah, it's a moist pound cake. Are there any special ingredients or equipment people should stock up on for this?

SU: I think equipment-wise, you'll need a bundt pan, but most of us probably have it already because we have baked Jessie's monkey bread, our inaugural Bake Club recipe, and, of course, you should have pistachios. You don't need to spring for the fanciest pistachios here. Preferably, if they're unsalted and unroasted, that would be ideal, but again, it's okay if they're lightly salted and lightly roasted. That works as well.

JS: Okay, love it. So, Bake Clubbers, once you bake through this pistachio cake, send us your pictures and questions. There are so many different ways to get in touch.

SU: You can comment on the recipe, on the Epicurious app, or on the Bon Appétit website, or you can email us at bakeclub@boneapetite.com. If you've made it and loved it, rate and review the recipe on our site.

We're your hosts, Shilpa Uskokovic.

JS: And Jesse Szewczyk.

SU: Michelle O'Brien is our senior producer.

JS: Jake Lummus is our studio engineer.

SU: This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macro Sound.

JS: Our executive producer is Jordan Bell.

SU: Chris Bannon is Condé Nast's, head of Global Audio.

JS: If you like this show, leave us a rating and review, and hit that follow button so you never miss an episode of BA Bake Club or Dinner SOS.

SU: If you're not already part of the club, head to bonappetite.com/bakeclub to find all the information you need to join.

JS: Thanks for listening to this month's edition of BA Bake Club. We'll see you next month.

SU: Next week, join Chris, me, Jesse, Kendra, and Amiel for a very special week of Dinner SOS back-to-basics episodes.

Originally Appeared on Bon Appétit