Women Who Travel Podcast: In Search of the Cats of the World
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There are few places in the world where you won't encounter a cat. So a few years ago, Hannah Shaw, who has dedicated much of her life and work to caring for cats, set out to meet and document has many as she could across the globe—spotlighting the extraordinary places they live and the people who care for them. Lale chats with the animal welfare advocate, bestselling author, and educator about her many travels, from Turkey to Chile to Oman, and finds out what she learned along the way.
Lale Arikoglu: Hello, I'm Lale Arikoglu and this is Women Who Travel, a podcast from Condé Nast Traveler. Today's show is a little out of the box for us, which I'm quite excited about. It's about people, but people caring for cats around the world and the cats bossing us around.
Hannah Shaw: Loving cats felt like a secret handshake that gave me access to the world. A huge goal for me also was just to highlight the amazing compassion that exists everywhere. There's not a corner of the world where you cannot find somebody doing some kind of amazing, compassionate courageous act to help animals.
LA: I'm talking to New York Times bestseller author and animal rescue expert, Hannah Shaw.
HS: My history with cats really started about 15 years ago. I was an animal lover, but I didn't know anything about cats and kittens and I was living in Philadelphia. I was sitting on a park bench and I looked up into this tree and saw a little kitten looking down at me, and I ended up climbing this tree and bringing her back down and kind of going, "Oh gosh, what have I gotten myself into here?" I got really involved in kitten rescue in the US. We have some really unique challenges with the zero to eight week old population for kittens here, so I sort of ended up dedicating my life to problem solving how we can reduce euthanasia of that population in the US shelter system.
When it comes to the travel side of things, I love to travel. I always think there are people who love architecture, so when they travel, they want to take architecture tours or you love food, so you travel and you want to try the local cuisine. When I travel, I always found myself gravitating towards wanting to understand what is happening in this community with cats, which lends itself to a lot of interesting relationships and it sort of just naturally became a project that evolved into what is now this book.
LA: Tell me a little bit about the aim of the book. What did you set out to do when you embarked on these travels? Because so much of it is about the communities and individuals who are taking it upon themselves to look after cats in the places that they call home.
HS: Yeah. Sometimes I think you don't know who you are until you know who everyone else is, and traveling really helped me think differently about the way that we do things here in America and put some context to it. Part of the goal was sort of unraveling some of that.
LA: And you have a pretty substantial internet following as well, four million followers.
HS: Yeah. I'm so fortunate to have a community online of people who are invested in the work that I'm doing.
LA: It's such a point of entry as well into sort of bonding with someone where you might not think that you have anything in common.
HS: Yes. Yeah.
LA: Did you find that that was an easy way to start to get to know people when you arrived in a place?
HS: If we were walking and we saw cats and somebody saw us taking photographs of, there were people who we didn't speak a single word of the same language, but they were inviting us into their living rooms and giving us coffee or giving us food, and we would communicate maybe non-verbally even about these animals. I think all the time about this beautiful photographer in Nairobi who invited us into his home and we were sitting in his home listening to records and drinking coffee and tea together, and he just said, "Isn't it amazing that we're all here together just because we love cats?" Everywhere we traveled, we would learn how to say a few phrases in every language.
LA: It's a good rule of thumb, I think.
HS: Yeah, of course. Well, I think there's the regular, "Hello, goodbye, please, thank you." For us, we also would learn, “Is there a cat here? What is the cat's name?”
HS: So I can say cat in all these different languages now, which was fun to put in the book.
LA: Wait. Not put you on the spot, but I've got to hear you say it in a couple of different languages.
HS: Sure.
LA: This is a great party trick.
LA: It's kind of like an amazing and wild trip to be taking. What were people's reactions?
HS: We did get some funny reactions. I mean the one that comes to mind is actually the cover shot, which is in Oia in Santorini, Greece. We got up super early to go to this beautiful spot, you're right there on the water with the blue domed churches and a lot of people go there to take fashion photos, like beauty photos in the mornings. But we were there to take pictures of the cats and so people were showing up in these beautiful dresses to take pictures of themselves and going, "Are you guys just taking pictures of the cats?" And we're like, "Oh, yeah. We're not here to take portraits of humans."
LA: I'm not knocking the people that go and get photographed in Santorini in their dresses and put it on Instagram. There is a place for it and a following, but I would love to see more cats and beautiful places on my feed.
HS: Yeah, absolutely. I felt very underdressed for that occasion because I was just geared out with photography stuff and I was just in shorts and a backwards hat or something, and the cats are as much a part of these communities, or more, than the people, especially in tourist areas like that.
LA: The order of places you visit in the book kind of jumps around. It's not ordered geographically, which I think is kind of fun as a reader. Malaysia's followed by Chile and the Netherlands and then it's Puerto Rico, and then suddenly you're in Oman. How did you choose the countries that you visited and kind of plot out the root? Were you kind following breadcrumbs and sort of one thing that you learned from one place might inspire you to go to the next or give you some sort of idea or was it quite a defined itinerary that you have mapped out?
HS: It was really me and Andrew sitting at a computer going, "Okay, we know that we want representation from every continent and every continent is represented except for Antarctica. There are no cats there." The one place you can go and not find a cat. But obviously with limited pages, we knew we could only fit about 30 countries, so we tried through researching on social media through talking with advocates that we knew in these spaces and kind of asking, "Where are the most interesting stories that are going to get us to learn something that's either maybe a historical lens for cats, a really interesting rescue, a really interesting cat living in a cathedral or in a shop somewhere?" It was important to me that we had a great diversity of communities that represent not just different regions but different religions, different socioeconomic status. We didn't want to just focus on western European countries, for instance.
LA: More about cats across the globe coming up.
You're back with Women Who Travel and Hannah Shaw.
HS: While we were planning this trip, from the very beginning, I knew that I wanted to go to Kotor, Montenegro. It is kind of called the City of Cats because they have this really interesting folklore there around cats saving that community from the plague. The Black Death was spread by rodents, rats and mice, and so the cats of the town were said to have protected people because there were so many cats that they killed the rats and mice.
LA: I'm imagining like a medieval Montenegro.
HS: Yes. The city of Kotor is a medieval fortified city that you park outside of, you go in on foot and you're in this walled city where there's just cat themes everywhere.
They're represented in so much of the art there and there are cat gift shops, there's a cat museum in Kotor and there are lots of cats everywhere. There's this beautiful hike that goes straight up a mountain to the San Giovanni Fortress, which is a medieval fortress that overlooks the Bay of Kotor, and it's kind of this crumbling stone fortress atop a mountain, if you can picture that, and we woke up really early to hike up there. So we were hiking and hiking and getting closer to this fortress and thinking, "There's no way that there's going to be a cat all the way up there at the top of this mountain." And we got to the top and the view is just absolutely breathtaking, if you can picture the red roofed houses below, and then this gorgeous bay with mountains reflected in it and we're exploring this medieval fortress and all of a sudden I hear this sound, which was, it sounded like this. It was like... I don't know if you can hear that.
LA: I could. It was perfect.
HS: The tiniest little chirp, just this little... and I was like, "Oh, my gosh, is there a cat here?" This cat with the tiniest little squeak of a voice was this big burly tomcat who had really thick white fur and yellow eyes, and he was so beautiful and had this really kind of pathetically sweet voice. But he lives in this fortress and he looks beautiful and he is cared for and fed, and he even had an ear tip showing that somebody had sterilized him, which, for me, he just brought tears to my eyes. I was like, "This is the king of cats."
LA: You're like, "We found him."
HS: Yeah. I really was like, "I am not worthy." And there's always that kind of very western draw to want to save everyone. I think that this is also part of my exploration as a American rescuer doing this project was kind of to try to undo some of that mindset that I'm so steeped in. I think a previous version of me would've been like, "I have to take him and bring him back down the hill and put him in a home." But he was very happy up there. That was his home. Then we hiked back down the mountain and talked to some local advocates and they all knew exactly who he was and said, "Oh, that's Dabeli and he lives up there and when he needs something, someone goes up there and brings him to the vet."
LA: I love that. That sort of savior complex that you mentioned is interesting, particularly in the context of travel and definitely is something that we talk about on this podcast and at Condé Nast Traveler more widely.
HS: My knee-jerk reaction is, I want to save you, but you don't need to be saved. The reason that the book opens with Malaysia is because there's a story in that chapter that is about my undoing of my own mindset, seeing a kitten in a meat market in Penang, Malaysia and kind of locking eyes with her and this pull that I had as an American kitten rescuer to want to save her. And then the way that that was tugging against the fact that actually a kitten in Penang, Malaysia is much safer than here in the United States because while we have this robust shelter system in America that they do not have there, we also euthanize healthy animals in an extent that would never happen in most of the world. That story was in the beginning of the book because I wanted other people to feel that kind of tension themselves, especially if it's western rescue-minded folks reading this book.
LA: And in the US, it is interesting there. It seems this kind of fear of cats existing in the wild. I think about how everyone I know who has cats, I mean, I'm speaking specifically to Brooklyn, which is its own place, but they're all indoor cats and even in London that's sort of unheard of. Everyone has a cat flap and the cats kind of roam London as they wish and come in and out of people's houses. Why do you think there's a sort of fear of these animals that haven't always been domesticated kind of living in the wild and in other places there's this sort of respect and tolerance for them doing their own thing a little bit more?
HS: Yeah, I mean that was a huge reason why I wanted to spend so much time in England because maybe you would think we would have a lot in common in terms of the strategies we take with cats, but it couldn't be more different, actually. Largely, American shelters and rescues only adopt cats out to indoor exclusive homes, and, actually, in England we visited several shelters and their policies are the exact opposite. They will not adopt out an animal unless you have a garden, a cat flap, some way for the cat to explore outdoors. Like, which one of these is correct? But the truth is we live in really different places and there's completely different contexts. Here in San Diego, California if I have a cat flap that lets my cats go outside, they are going to get swooped up by a bird of prey or taken by a coyote.
LA: You've already recounted so many positive experiences and it seems like wherever you went there was something positive that came out of it. I'm interested know though that it can't have always been easy and were there places where you encountered some sort of opposition?
HS: This is not just a book about cute cats around the world and people who love them, it also-
LA: Cats being saved.
HS: Yeah, it also is about the real challenges that cats face and there are definitely chapters that feel heavier than others in that way. There were a couple of places that felt heavier to me. I would say the United Arab Emirates is one, there's a lot of struggles and challenges there that it was difficult to even write about because a lot of people wanted to be anonymous or locations needed to be anonymous to be able to discuss them, that there are cats living in these lavish homes and living these incredible spoiled lifestyles, but then also there are cats living in the labor camps outside of Dubai where there are no resources for them at all. And talking with the people in the labor camps, having this compassion for the animals, but having so few resources, that was a really stark contrast that was difficult, but important to tell. You have thousands and thousands of people and then thousands and thousands of cats all together. I think what was really... I mean, it was so difficult to see that the people who had the least were often tasked with doing the most.
LA: I can't talk to you about this book without talking about one of my favorite places, which is very close to my heart, which is Istanbul. I have family there. I've spent a lot of time there over the years. I grew up going on vacation there. It is cat city. It really is. It's a magical city for so many reasons, but the way that the cats just sort of own it is quite special. You go into coffee shops and there is always a cat curled up on a seat. They have such a presence there, and I just want to hear what your experience of of Istanbul was like a bit because it also, so many of its iconic tourist spots are also sort of dominated by the resident cats that live there.
HS: Yeah, I mean, I was amazed that I knew that going in and I still got there and couldn't comprehend how not just the presence of the cats... In the center of Istanbul, you see basically every single shop has food and water out for the cats, and I asked a friend there, "Why do you think that is?" And he said, "Well, if you grow up and you see your dad doing that and you see the cafe next door is doing that and you see your friends doing that, then of course that's what you're going to do." And it's sort of just a phenomenon there that everybody embraces the cats. I will say it's certainly not a paradise for cats. There are definitely struggles there. The economy is a big struggle there for people who want to be able to help the cats who are outside but just simply cannot and so there are-
LA: Oh, I mean, yeah, I was in Istanbul last year and Turkey was at one of its highest points of inflation maybe ever. The cost of living there is so expensive, and so to find the money and the time outside of your regular work to do caregiving for cats, I imagine, is really challenging for people.
HS: Yeah, is really challenging, but there are incredible people in Istanbul. I mean Sarper Duman is one of my favorite advocates in the world, and he's a pianist who, like you said, he was having a very hard time being able to afford to care for the cats that he was finding outdoors. But he would teach piano lessons, that was what he did for a living, and one day he took a video for one of his piano students and his cat, one of his rescued cats jumped up and the cat's kind of walking on the keys and rubbing on his face and he thought, "This is cute, maybe I'll put it online." And the way he tells the story is so funny because he's like, "I woke up and it had 50 million views or something." And he's like, "What happened?" He didn't know that he was going to become this overnight sensation.
LA: Coming up, how to nail that cat photo on your next vacation.
We're back with some tips on how to incorporate cats into your own travels.
HS: If you're traveling and let's say you don't have a lot of time to give, but you want to give something back to the cats of that community, an easy thing is just before you travel, look up what are the organizations in that community and reach out to them and say, "Is there something I can bring you?" Because there are parts of, I'm thinking of Tanzania now. For instance, in Zanzibar, there's a wonderful community of people caring for kittens there, but there is no kitten formula there. You can't get kitten formula, you can't get bottles and things like that. So for instance, if you go to Zanzibar, you could reach out to them and say, "What can I bring you?" And maybe you throw some kitten bottles in your bag and you bring them to Zanzibar and get to meet some lovely people there that are doing that work and maybe volunteer.
LA: What an icebreaker and a way to connect with people in a new place by showing up with some kitten bottles and saying, "How can I help and can I meet the cats?"
HS: Sure.
LA: And in Swahili say, I can't remember it, but, "Is there a cat here?"
HS: Yeah. As somebody who takes care of bottle babies, like neonatal orphaned kittens, there are certain types of nipple attachments for bottles that I really like and I will just throw 20 of them in my bag when I'm traveling and then give them to kitten people that I meet.
LA: Oh, my God, you're like a Mary Poppins of cats.
HS: They're so grateful and I'm just traveling with my bag of nipples.
LA: Yeah. Have you ever had to explain that at TSA? Get pulled over and be like-
HS: Actually, in fact, it was in Heathrow that my husband got stopped for a bag of unmarked catnip, which was really funny.
LA: Oh, my God.
HS: I don't think I've ever laughed so hard in my life. They were like, "What is this dried green substance?" And we were like-
LA: You're cat people.
HS: You're like, "You've got to believe us, it isn't weed." Pretty funny. Yeah, so I mean back to helping. Yes, I would say do your research ahead of time. If there's somewhere that you're going, reach out to the group, say, "Hey, can I volunteer with you? Can I bring you something? What would be helpful?" If you want to build a trip all around doing that work, I would say look into volunteering for spayathons. There are a lot of large spay neuter campaigns that will happen a couple times a year in designated areas. We volunteered for one in Vieques in Puerto Rico, and so we tell that story in the book, but that was a really cool way of getting to see Vieques and you're not just going there to sun tan on the beach. You're going there and you're meeting community members and helping to, you can either help with trapping or maybe you can help with checking people in for the clinic.
LA: There are so many great visuals in this book. The internet loves cat content. I mean, clearly four million people follow you on the internet. Andrew's a professional. I'm sure you've got some tips from him through the travels. How do you take a good cat video or good cat photo I should ask?
HS: I think that the biggest tip, especially people know how hard it is to take pictures of their cats at home, taking pictures of cats that you don't know is a whole other level. But I think building trust is really important. There's not a single cat photo in this book that was of a cat that didn't feel comfortable with us because we would go to great lengths to just establish some kind of connection, whether that's through sitting with them quietly, whether that's through petting them if they wanted to be pet, offering some kind of treat, and then kind of helping them feel natural in their environment while you're slowly getting out the camera gear and letting them smell it. And we were able to capture, I think, these beautiful photos that are at their level and feel like you're there with them because they felt comfortable doing it. So I would say never force a cat who doesn't want to be having their photo taken.
LA: Which is very cat-like. I feel like cats never want to be forced to do anything they don't want to do.
HS: Who does? I don't want to be forced to do anything either.
LA: Exactly, exactly.
HS: And I think if a tourist came up to me and just started taking my picture, I'd say, "Don't you want to say hello first and shake my hand?"
LA: Yeah, I'll be fuming. There's a lot of humans in the book as well. I'm still looking at the Istanbul pages right now. I'm actually looking at a fisherman and then also—
HS: There's a cat.
LA: ... a gentleman who almost looks like he's having some sort of conversation with the cat. He's outside of fishmongers. I presume that he works at the fishmongers.
HS: Yeah. Yeah. I mean all of those, we would just have a conversation with the person. There was a cat in Turkey in a little tea and sweets shop, her name's Pekize, but they call her the Turkish Garfield, and there's a picture in the book of the shop vendor giving her a shiatsu massage. And they were just delighted like, "Oh, my gosh, she's having her little photo shoot with all the flashes out."
LA: Her moment.
HS: Yeah. Sometimes we would just quick get the shot and then sometimes we would be like, "Is it okay if we do a photo shoot in your shop and really get out all the lighting equipment and stuff like that," for a cat Pekize who they were so excited for her to be in the book.
LA: Is there a quick non-Cat story from your travels that will stay with you that you could share?
HS: Yeah, I mean, well, I got engaged during these travels. We were in Thailand on this little Thai island called Ko Lipe, which is just one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. And this was actually one of the earlier places that we traveled, and we went to this kayak shop that had a cat named Usa and her story... Well see, now I'm making it about cats. It's not supposed to be about cats. And so we rent this kayak and we go out to this even smaller unoccupied island just to explore and hike. And we got out there and we were hiking and we get to this beautiful view overlooking the cliffs, and we're the only people on this little, little island. And Andrew looks at me with tears in his eyes and pulls out a ring, and it was just very beautiful. I couldn't believe that he had an engagement ring with him on a kayak. I was like, "Where did you even have that?"
LA: I feel like that was a risk. You could have had a very stressful day.
HS: Yes, yes. I didn't know at all. And then we kayaked back and returned the kayak and Usa was the first cat to see my engagement ring. So that was—
LA: I will give you that as a semi non-cat story. Hannah, it has been such a pleasure. This has just been so fun talking to you. And also, I feel like I learned a lot as well. If people want to follow along with your travels, pick up a copy of the book, where on the internet can they find you?
HS: Sure. So thank you so much. This has been really fun. If people want to find me, my website is kittenlady.org or they can find me on social media at kittenxlady or on YouTube at Kitten Lady, and the book is Cats of the World.
LA: Thank you for listening to Women Who Travel. I'm Lale Arikoglu and you can find me on Instagram at lalehannah. Our engineer is Pran Bandi, and special thanks to Jake Lummus for engineering support. Our show is mixed by Amar Lal at Macrosound. Jude Kampfner is our producer, Stephanie Kariuki, our executive producer, and Chris Bannon is head of Condé Nast Global Audio.
Originally Appeared on Condé Nast Traveler
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