I Need a Pizza Dough Recipe That's Actually Good
Photo by Travis Rainey, Food Styling by Jesse Szewczyk, Prop Styling by Christina Allen
ON THIS WEEK’S episode of Dinner SOS, test kitchen director and host Chris Morocco hands the feed back over to senior test kitchen editors Shilpa Uskokovic and Jesse Szewczyk who introduce us to the next BA Bake Club recipe (and one they developed together): Incredibly Good Homemade Pizza.
Have you ever had visions of a romantic pizza night at home? Or planned a build-it-yourself pizza party for your friends or kids? You made the dough, grated the cheese, rolled, and stretched, and topped, and baked and in the end, the pizza was honestly just kinda bad? We have. Turns out, the idea of making pizza at home is always better than the reality. Often, homemade pizza can be dry and leathery, or tough and chewy, or just focaccia pretending to be pizza. Jesse and Shilpa set out to change this. Their goal? Homemade pizza that felt, looked, and tasted like it might have come out of a wood-fire oven with a bubbly, defined rim, decent leoparding (the technical term for the charred bits on pizza), and just a hint of chew. Plus, an unfussy, uncomplicated dough that wouldn’t need an overnight rest if you don’t have the time. Before they break down their process, the pair take us back to school in Bread 101. They explain that all doughs fall in two camps–enriched and lean–and discuss the differences between each. They talk about dough hydration. Shilpa gets extremely excited about baker’s percentage and why it’s pivotal to understanding the world of bread making.
Next, our bakers reminisce about all the tests they ran in developing the ideal pizza dough from figuring out which flour is best (bread), to considering if it was a good idea to add Parmesan cheese to the dough (opinions are still divided on this one). Jesse tells us about a run in with the one and only Prue Lieth in the test kitchen.
Shilpa explains her favorite part of this recipe–the two-step cooking process. Cooking the crust on the stovetop in a skillet slicked with a bit of olive oil helped the pair achieve the pizza of their dreams, golden brown and crisp on the bottom, with an airy crumb throughout. Then they invite this recipe's number one fan, deputy food editor Hana Asbrink, to talk about her experience making the pizza at home. Hana has put this recipe through the wringer. She also admits she has never made the sauce that accompanies the recipe (we still love her though).
With plenty of listener questions and a bonus trivia game (did you know Americans buy three billion pizzas a year?!), there is a lot to discover in this episode, including the fact that Jesse went to pizza school where, in his own words, he felt like “Wednesday Adams at summer camp.”
Listen now to hear more about how Jesse and Shilpa conquered homemade pizza.
Shilpa Uskokovic: I am Shilpa Uskokovic.
Jesse Szewczyk: And I'm Jesse Szewczyk.
SU: We are both senior test kitchen editors at Bon Appétit.
JS: And this is BA Bake Club.
SU: Bake Club is Bon Appétit's book club, but for baking.
JS: We're creating the nerdiest and most wholesome corner of the baking internet.
SU: Jesse, this is our third recipe, and it's also our third podcast episode. Can you believe that?
JS: No, actually.
SU: Yeah. That's wild.
JS: It still feels all brand new to me.
SU: It certainly does.
JS: But I am seeing people's names pop up over and over again.
SU: Our regulars, if you will, and it has been a very nice, wholesome community.
JS: It has.
SU: Yeah. So at this point, hopefully you know the drill. Every month we publish a recipe on BonAppétit.com that introduces a baking concept, Jesse and I feel you should know about.
JS: And so for this month, everyone baked our first ever co-developed recipe, something we've never done, which we have dubbed, Incredibly Good Homemade Pizza. So, what makes this pizza incredibly good?
SU: So, we cook the pizza on the stovetop, and then into the broiler. And I think this really solves a problem texture-wise, where usually recipes that make pizza at home are kind of more focaccia-like.
JS: Yeah, they're breadier. But we wanted to develop a recipe for a pizza that's like truly woodfire style. It's super crispy and charred, an open, airy crumb, and just a thinner crust.
SU: The homemade pizza can often be very leathery and dry because most of us don't have access to pizza ovens, which go up to very high temperatures. So this recipe successfully recreates that pizza oven kind of cook, but in a home setting. And also, it's just a simple dough recipe that doesn't ask a lot of you. Very basic ingredients, and it's easy to come together. A lazy, hands-off kind of approach to making the dough.
The other thing we were solving for is, we were trying to develop a pizza crust recipe that could be used that day. We wanted a pizza that could be made and shaped on the same day, because when you get a craving for pizza, you want to act on it as soon as possible. And I think all of this combined, the end result is just incredibly good.
JS: Definitely.
SU: Jesse, before we developed the recipe, did you have any pizza making experience by chance?
JS: Okay. Well, this is a loaded question. My first job out of college was quite bizarre. I worked on menus for large corporate chains. And one of my clients, you have to beep this out, was (beep) Pizza. So I was sent to their headquarters, this pizza company's headquarters. And it was this whole program, I had to learn how to make their pizza, learn how to make their dough, learn how to stretch things, learn how to answer phone calls. So, I got really good at stretching pizza.
SU: Wait, I need you to go back to, you were taught to answer phone calls?
JS: Yeah, they made us work every position in this pizza company's-
SU: Stop.
JS: Yes.
SU: What did you have to say?
JS: I don't even remember, but I felt like maybe Wednesday Adams at summer camp. I felt like a little cheerleader. It was so positive and I was so miserable, but I got really good at stretching pizza, so, thanks (beep).
SU: Wow. You were very good at shaping the pizzas when we develop this.
JS: Thank you, yeah. I'm excited to talk about that.
SU: I can vouch for your past experience.
JS: Yeah, it comes in handy. Do you have any pizza experience?
SU: I do have this wild story that once when I had just moved to New York and on internship, and right after work, I went to a pizza place that was by the apartment that I was living at. And then I saw these guys making pizza behind the counter and I was like, "Oh, can I try?" I was full of this new graduate kind of energy.
JS: Sure.
SU: And I was like, "Can I try?" And then I did try, they were so kind and they let me try it.
JS: They just let you come back there?
SU: They just let me come back there. This was so long ago, nobody cared.
JS: Sure, sure, sure.
SU: They let me come back there and shape it, and I think they didn't expect that I would do it.
JS: Sure.
SU: So they gave me a free large pizza at the end.
JS: Okay, sure. A natural talent.
SU: I don't know that the pizza came out good, maybe that's why they gave it to me, but I did get a pizza out of that experience.
JS: Wow, okay.
SU: I always think about that moment, and besides that, I've just made pizza at home like most of us. Sometimes successfully, most of the times unsuccessfully.
JS: So we're both, let's say pizza experts.
SU: Yes, very much so.
JS: In big quotes here.
SU: I think just we're the right people to develop this recipe.
JS: Yeah, I agree, I agree. So, let's use this recipe as kind of our entry point to just talk about the world of bread. Maybe this is almost like a bread 101. So monkey bread, our first Bake Club recipe, was an enriched dough, and this is a lean dough. So Shilpa, what is the difference?
SU: Well, monkey bread, it's enriched really with fat in the form of butter, and then you add in eggs as well, so it's a richer dough. And the pizza is a lean dough, and whenever something is referred to as a lean dough, it's the lack of fat. And in this case, it's a very fundamental dough with just flour, yeast, salt, water, and a little bit of sugar.
JS: And then what are we looking for in the final texture of a lean dough versus an enriched dough?
SU: Oh, I think a big thing in texture is lean doughs generally have bigger bubbles and a more open crumb. And I think enriched doughs tend to have a more closed, almost cake-like, more even cell structure.
JS: Yeah, I agree. It's like cake in bread form.
SU: Yes, exactly.
JS: Yeah, if that makes sense.
SU: It does make sense, at least to me.
JS: And the exterior of an enriched dough is quite tender.
SU: Oh, that's a good point. Yeah, it's like a more deep golden brown because it's typically egg-washed as well.
JS: And it's thin.
SU: Yes, it's thin. And a lean dough is a crustier.
JS: It's hard, yeah.
SU: Harder outer surface. Oh, that's a good point. I like that.
JS: Yeah, and then I feel like one big one when we talk about bread is hydration and baker's percentages, which I know are things people throw around all the time, and they're probably quite interesting to people, but maybe quite confusing.
SU: Wow, I don't know where to start with this because... Okay, okay. Let me tell you this. I think to me, the most exciting thing about bread is baker's percentage.
JS: For me, it's like hydration, yeah. I agree.
SU: It's so exciting because once you get it, you get it.
JS: Yeah, it's not that complicated.
SU: You can make any bread in the world-
JS: Sure.
SU: ... once you understand when somebody says this is a 70% hydration dough, or a 55% hydration dough. Once you get what that means, and once you get how baker's percentage works, I feel like you're a bread maker. That's it.
JS: So what does that mean, if something's 70% hydration?
SU: Hydration is the amount of liquid in relation to flour that there is in a dough, and this is why it's important again, as every episode I've made it my mission to talk about a scale.
JS: Weigh your ingredients.
SU: About weighing your ingredients, and this is proof again, that a scale is indispensable. So let's say for example, we start with 1,000 grams of flour. A 70% hydration dough has 700 grams of water. So, 70% of the flour's weight is the amount of water that you would add.
JS: Sure.
SU: Yes.
JS: And why do we care? What does this do?
SU: The amount of hydration changes the texture and the crumb of the final bread. The higher the hydration, the more open and irregular the structure will be.
JS: Yeah, like a focaccia or a ciabatta are very wet.
SU: Yes, ciabatta.
JS: Yeah, because they're just big and bubbly and irregular.
SU: You know what's a good example of a low hydration dough that's also lean? A bagel.
JS: Exactly. Yes, yes.
SU: A bagel is a good example.
JS: It's tight.
SU: Yes, that's a good, I think illustration between two lean doughs with two very different hydrations and what happens. A bagel is typically, I think around 50%, 50 to 55% hydration, and it's very chewy and dense. And a pizza in our case was almost 90% hydration, I think
JS: It was very... We kept on pushing it higher and higher, higher, and it would still hold its shape and work, yeah.
SU: It was very easy to work with.
JS: So it is a very high hydration dough, yes.
SU: Yes, and it results in a very open, airy crumb.
JS: Yes, exactly. So, what does baker's percentage actually mean?
SU: Okay, let me try to answer this in a condensed way. But baker's percentage is where you assume the flour as 100%, and then every other ingredient in that bread recipe is expressed as a percentage of the flour. Typically, yeast doughs will have salt at 2%, yeast anywhere between 0.5 to 2%. So the point is, once you understand baker's percentage and that ingredients are expressed as a percentage of the flour, it then becomes very easy to create your own recipe for bread by altering the ratios and the percentages. And it also becomes very easy to understand, what are the different ingredients and elements that are affecting your bread?
JS: So, we're always thinking of flour as the anchor 100%. Kind of in the same way when you're calculating hydration.
SU: Yes.
JS: It's the same mathematical formula. You're just listing multiple things as a percentage, not just one.
SU: Yes, exactly, because the basis of bread is flour.
JS: Sure.
SU: And it's like, what do you add to flour to make it into a bread? And then you add different percentages of water, salt, yeast, fat.
JS: Sure. Okay. It's not as complicated as it sounds.
SU: No.
JS: So then fermentation I know is another big thing in bread making. I know that's the relation to time and temperature and yeast and activity. So, tell me about this because I know you said we specifically wanted this to be like a one-day project. So, how did we tackle that?
SU: Okay, you had this great idea of pushing the amount of yeast that we add to the dough so that you would get a fast, high rise, enabling you to finish the dough from start to finish on the same day. And I think if you're reducing the time that it sits, increasing the yeast is a natural smart solve for getting good volume.
JS: And I know that this recipe also doesn't require any kneading, or at least in the traditional sense, but it requires folding. And I know folding is maybe another big bread nerd thing to talk about, because what is folding? Why do it?
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
SU: First of all, I think maybe we should establish why you knead bread to begin with.
JS: Sure.
SU: You have to knead bread to activate the gluten that's in flour. Gluten is something that forms when you combine flour and water, and that interaction of water with flour activates the protein strands and then create gluten. And the higher, the more gluten that you can activate for a bread the better, because then your bread will rise up and hold its shape as it bakes. And there's actually many different ways that you can create the structure. One is by kneading.
JS: Yeah, like on a surface or with a dough hook, whatever.
SU: Yeah. Old fashioned. Yeah, old fashioned on a surface or in a stand mixer. And the second way is time. Sometimes just with time you can develop gluten. That's why a lot of breads do rest overnight. And the third one, which Jesse and I both love and are talking about here, is a method called stretch and fold, where you're literally stretching the dough up and then you fold it over itself. And you do this multiple times over the course of a few hours, and that's a very gentle but effective way of building structure. And it's usually much more effective, Jesse, I would say in a high hydration dough such as this pizza dough. It's easier to do a stretch and fold for a soft, loose dough like this, than it is to try and knead it.
JS: Yeah, because I think also, they're tough to work with when they're high hydration because it might be a mess, and you'll be tempted to add flour. Versus with stretch and fold, instead of adding flour, you can just dampen your hand and it won't stick to you.
SU: Yes.
JS: So, I want to talk a bit about the development process for this one, because it took a really long time and it was challenging.
SU: It was challenging. I do have to say, you took on the lion's share of this recipe. You did a lot of development and you put a lot of time into it. I'm always grateful to you for that.
JS: Well, no, I don't... Well, you were the one who came up with the two-prong cooking process.
SU: Oh, yeah. It was a good collaboration.
JS: We both take credit, yeah.
SU: Yes.
JS: But-
SU: Oh my god, what did we try?
JS: Where do we start? Okay, I think we start with the flour type.
SU: Okay. Yeah, that's a good one.
JS: Yeah, obviously we want to use AP because it's the easiest to find, so we try to do it with AP.
SU: Which is all-purpose flour.
JS: All-purpose, yeah. We tried one with bread flour, we tried one with whole wheat flour, we tried one with a combination of various things, half whole wheat and half AP, half bread, and this went on for a while. Yeah.
SU: In the end, we ended up using bread flour.
JS: Bread flour, yeah.
SU: ... in our recipe, because it really did offer that little extra bit of texture.
JS: It was just better.
SU: It was better.
JS: Chewier, nicer. It's worth finding.
SU: Yeah. To be fair to all-purpose flour, it did work.
JS: Second place.
SU: Yeah. Second place. Surprisingly, it worked, but the bread flour, because of the higher protein content, was able to hold on to more water, and then it yielded a nice chewy crust. The flour that we favor, especially for the bread flour, is King Arthur. It has a higher protein content than most other bread flours in the market, coming in at around 12.7%. And it worked really well in our testing.
JS: And it's easy to find.
SU: Yeah, and it's easy to find.
JS: Yeah, totally. So another thing we kind of went down a rabbit hole here was that some people wanted to almost imitate the flavor of a long fermentation.
SU: I love that you're not naming the people.
JS: Somebody we might know on this show, which is smart, it's a good idea. This is a quick dough, so it's not developing that kind of yeasty interesting flavor you get when doughs rest overnight or multiple days. So we were like, what tastes like that? What can we add to the dough? Okay. We tried white wine.
SU: We tried white wine.
JS: We tried cheese.
SU: Parmesan, yeah.
JS: We tried miso.
SU: That was so smart.
JS: We tried yogurt.
SU: Oh, I forgot about yogurt, yes.
JS: Yeah, we did, and they were all not really it.
SU: They weren't. Though I have to say, remember the cheese one?
JS: The cheese one was tasty, but it wasn't... I don't know what it was, but.
SU: It tasted like a garlic knot.
JS: Yeah.
SU: Yeah. It felt like it could make good garlic bread. The miso one, I was really so excited. I thought that was so smart. I was like, we're going to break the internet. You know?
JS: So we, I don't know, maybe three days we spent on this or something and we just concluded that the basic pizza, there's ways to work with this dough that would impart interesting flavors, that we don't have to add something else. Yeah.
SU: And Jesse, the most exciting part of this process perhaps, and a moment that I'm very sad that I missed, I heard we had a very special guest during the testing.
JS: Oh, where were you? Yeah.
SU: I was actually up here taping a podcast.
JS: Oh, serious? Yeah. Prue Leith stopped by the test kitchen, I was making pizza, and-
SU: My gosh.
JS: ... I think she was waiting for something, so she just kind of came over and talked to me. But we were talking about pizza, I was making it.
SU: And she gave you her stamp of approval. Don't leave that out.
JS: Well, she said it looked good.
SU: There we go.
JS: So, anyways.
SU: Prue Leith approved pizza, everyone.
JS: We won this one.
SU: Potentially, the most exciting thing about this recipe is the two-step cooking process that we mentioned earlier. Jesse, do you want to?
JS: I mean, I agree. I'd never seen that or heard of that before. And when I came to with like, oh, I like this dough and you suggested this, it kind of blew my mind.
SU: Yeah. I do think it's a great technique to cook it. And the technique is, you cook it on the stovetop first to get some color on the bottom, and then you slide the top pizza under a broiler to char the crust on top.
JS: I think also, cooking it with the lid on in the pan was also a big deal.
SU: Yes, I agree.
JS: Yes, because this introduces steam as if it's a very expensive pizza oven where you can calibrate the steam.
SU: Yeah, and it kept the top crust kind of supple, rather than drying it out. So it allowed the crust to expand and form those big bubbles.
JS: Yeah, and then when it's under the broiler, it's like magically the cheese melts at the exact same time and pace, that the crust burns. Yeah, which is kind of great.
SU: I think this was a game-changing technique for pizza.
JS: Yeah. I mean, I'm going to use it always when I make pizza at home.
SU: Forevermore.
JS: Yeah. Why would I make pizza in a oven now?
SU: We are going to take a quick break.
JS: When we're back, we'll answer some questions from Bake Clubbers.
SU: Welcome back to BA Bake Club.
JS: Shilpa, we got a ton of questions about this recipe, so I'm just going to dive right in. Are you ready?
SU: I am ready.
JS: Okay. So our first question is from AJ who writes, "For the instruction stretch dough into a nine to 10 inch round, is that using your hands, like pulling it into a circle, or using a rolling pin to roll it into a circle?
SU: I think this is a question that you need to answer, seeing as you are the pizza shaping expert.
JS: Okay. So yes, use your hands. I did try using a rolling pin at one point, and what happens is that you just press all of the air out of it, so all the work you put in to activate that yeast and let it do its thing and puff up and leaven the dough, you're just smashing all of it. So, we don't want to do that.
So, what I do is I take the dough ball or I lightly flour it, and I kind of just pinch around the sides and kind of keep pulling slowly, slowly, like pulling from the center outward. So then when I'm pulling, it's like that's the crust. If you rush this process, you can rip it. It's almost like you have to ease the dough into this. But yeah, definitely use your hands. You kind of want it to be irregular. You don't want to smash it too much, so try to keep those nice bubbles you've worked for in the dough.
Okay. The next question is actually from our producer, Michele. Michele, what is your question?
Michele O'Brien: I had a really hard time going from the stretched out dough on my floured surface to the pan, for the first part of the cook. One of my dough rounds ripped a little bit. The other one got really folded up when I transferred it. I was able to fix part of it with my spatula, but part of it was so folded and thick that it ended up undercooked. Do you have any advice for making that transfer more easily? For context, I used a stainless steel skillet with two inch tall sides.
SU: Jesse and I want to be sympathetic, but we also found the culprit in your-
JS: We're staring at her right now.
SU: So Michele, first of all, thank you for making the pizza. The issue lies in the stainless steel skillet with the two inch tall sides. In my opinion, you would need flared sides, not tall, straight sided skillet. You need a skillet which has flared sides so you can get in and out easier.
JS: Oh, yeah.
SU: That's-
JS: When it's sloped, it kind of takes care of itself.
SU: Yeah. Yes, exactly. Preface by saying that this step can trip people up, because-
JS: Yeah, this is maybe the most difficult step.
SU: Yeah, we are asking people to take this 10 inch circle of-
JS: Delicate, yeah.
SU: ... floppy dough and put it onto a surface, and you have to keep your hands quite close to a very hot surface, which is filled with oil. So we get that it can be a little nerve wracking. But I think what helps in this is having a skillet with flared sides, not too high. So it gives you a little bit more freedom of movement. And the second thing is if it rips a little bit, it's fine, if it's not so big a rip.
JS: Yeah, I ran into this.
SU: Yeah, and what happened, Jesse? What did you experience?
JS: I didn't do anything differently. I just continued to go and whoever got that slice maybe got a little less crust on the bottom.
SU: Yeah, and because did you feel like even if it had a small rip and as it cooked and the pizza rose, it kind of fills up that gap?
JS: Enough, yeah. It's not going to leak sauce or anything.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
SU: So if your dough rips and the rip is not too big, just don't worry about it. As it cooks, it'll kind of fill up. And the second problem here, the fact that it got super folded up, I think it is a function of the pan. Yeah. I think my most elegant solution is to perhaps have a pair of chopsticks or a spatula close by, so you can just kind of reshape as best you can.
JS: Yeah, before it sets, yeah.
SU: Yeah, before it sets.
JS: Interesting about the sides though. I've never thought of that.
SU: Though I have to say, somebody, remember? Somebody in our group chat, they posted saying the-
JS: In the Dutch oven.
SU: ... Dutch oven.
JS: That's impressive.
SU: Yeah. I was like, damn, girl.
JS: That's scary.
SU: Yeah.
JS: The next question is from Sarah, who wants to know how this dough could be made ahead of time, for say like a pizza party.
SU: There was so many people, Jesse, in our group chat, who-
JS: Who wanted to make it ahead.
SU: ... wanted to make it ahead.
JS: Which is funny, because we thought it was so important to make this a quick process.
SU: Exactly. We really developed this dough for somebody who wants to make pizza today, now. But we got surprisingly a lot of questions about exactly this. How could we adapt this dough to be made later, the next day, the day after?
JS: Yeah, so we tested actually holding the dough for a few different time periods. I made it the day of, then baked it as prescribed. I pushed it until way later in that evening, I did it the next day, I even held the dough in the fridge for two days and three days. And I assumed something would happen, it would over leaven, get weird. It was honestly fine every single time. There was minute differences between each one, but you can make it up to, I would say, three days in advance in the fridge, and it's totally fine. It's like an over-leavened product to begin with, so there's kind of less risk.
SU: I think that, yeah, just treat it like any other dough. I would say put it in your bowl, cover it tightly either with plastic wrap or if the bowl has a nice tight lid, you could use a lid, and then just keep it in the fridge. And then Jesse, do you recommend that, do they bring it back to room temperature before they shape or just shape cold?
JS: Nah, I can just shape cold. It's such a high hydration dough that it's like loose enough.
SU: Easy to.
JS: Yeah.
SU: And it has no fat, yeah.
JS: But it's important to mention that do this only after you do the folding and the dividing.
SU:Yes.
JS: So make your dough, do all the folds, divide the dough into two, because it makes two crusts. And then that's when you refrigerate those two doughs.
SU: You're waiting for the dough to ferment a little bit, build it structure, and only then you're resting it.
JS: Exactly.
SU: Yeah.
JS: So I know someone did ask, I'm interested in what you think. Someone said, "Can you freeze the dough?"
SU: Oh, I mean, yes, I suppose you could. I would just say take the usual precautions when you freeze something, put it in an airtight bag such as a Ziplock bag or an airtight container. Make sure there's no air and freeze it. And then you can throw it in the refrigerator overnight, and then just treat it like normal. And then instant yeast should bounce back.
JS: It's like grocery store pizza dough then.
SU: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
JS: The next question comes from Annie who writes, "Curious whether you tested a version in cast iron on the stovetop, and then going into the oven in the same pan? I know the timing would be different, but it'd cut down on dishes.
SU: Actually, we got a few people asking this question, and I realize in retrospect, yes. I mean, yes, you certainly can do it, but I think we didn't explain why we didn't do it. And maybe let's take a moment here to explain why.
So yes, you can certainly slide that pan that you're cooking the pizza on the stovetop, you can certainly put it under the broiler if it's a broiler safe pan, of course, such as cast iron, which is. But the reason Jesse and I opted to take out the crust and then transfer to a wire rack is because we wanted to broil both pizzas at the same time. So we essentially cooked two pizza crusts on the stovetop, transferred, had them both on a rimmed sheet tray on a wire rack, and then we slid it under the broiler. That way you could have two pizzas nice and fresh, but without having to wait or stagger or be there at the stovetop cooking one while somebody else is eating the first one. But yeah, you certainly can just move directly from stovetop to oven. I do it all the time at home.
We are going to take one more break.
JS: When we get back, we're going to talk to the person who is possibly this recipe's biggest fan, and then Shilpa, I have a little game for you.
SU: Oh, god. Okay, stick around, everyone.
JS: Welcome back to BA Bake Club.
SU: Of course, we've been talking a lot about dough, which is the baking part of this recipe. But the other fun part of making your own pizza is the toppings.
JS: We mostly just tested it with tomato sauce and cheese, but of course you could go absolutely wild with the toppings if you wanted. And one of our colleagues did exactly that. So we had to have her on the show to share kind of what worked, what didn't work, and maybe give you some inspiration for how to top your pizzas.
SU: Hana Asbrink is our Deputy Food Editor, which means that she manages us, and she also keeps the ship running in the test kitchen.
JS: And she basically has a hand in the development of every single recipe we publish and you see, whether that's actually cooking it with us. But she for sure tastes every single recipe too, and her feedback is invaluable, and-
SU: I love Hana so much, and there is not a day that I come in not excited to see her. Personally, she changes the shape of my day.
JS: Yeah, she's just great to work with.
SU: Hana, welcome to BA Bake Club.
JS: Welcome.
Hana Asbrink: Thank you.
SU: We're so excited that you're here.
HA: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be here. I am absolutely this recipe's number one fan. Dough, yeah.
JS: She really is.
HA: And maybe should we add the disclaimer that I love to remix your recipes?
SU: Like making lemon blueberry cake without blueberries.
JS: She'd be like, I made your loaf but it was a bit different. She's like, well, I didn't have blueberries.
HA: I promise I'm a professional.
JS: Okay, so you're the recipe's biggest fan. How many times do you think you've made it?
HA: I have made this recipe no fewer than five times at this point, and-
JS: Which is 10 pizzas.
HA: Yeah, and totally unsolicited, no one asked me.
JS: No, we loved it.
HA: No one asked me to stress test this recipe. I took it upon myself pretty early on in your development.
JS: It was early, yeah.
HA: You know how the final recipe ends up yielding two more personal sized pies. And at home we usually just do a sheet pan pizza on the weekends. And so one weekend I just baked it without employing the unique two-step method, but just to see if the dough would still be that luscious, chewy, springy pizza crust, just via hot sheet pan, hot oven. And it didn't actually perform in the same way. So I was happy to know that, because I think at the very start, and I don't know if you've talked about this already, we were toying with the idea of making a very versatile all-purpose pizza dough, but it's like, no, this still wants to be in this specific recipe, just performing in this very specific way. And I think that level of focus helped create such an amazing final product.
SU: What about toppings, Hana? What kind of toppings did you try in your 10 pizzas?
HA: Oh, so of course, I actually admittedly have not made this tomato sauce that you guys have provided with the recipe. Though certainly, I've tried it enough times in the office. But at home, the sauce part is usually a jar of Rao's marinara just for ease, and it's just so good and available and versatile. But our house pizza toppings are usually some type of salami or pepperoni, red onion, and bell peppers.
JS: Do you cook anything before you put it on?
HA: No.
JS: Nothing?
HA: You don't cook anything.
SU: Not even the peppers? You didn't saute the peppers?
HA: No, no, no. Everything's cut fairly small or thinly. And I was really relying on that broiler step to get everything to at least not a raw, super crunchy state. But that's our house pizza normally, and it just works so well, and-
SU: Have you ever felt that you have to hold back on the toppings?
HA: Yes. This dough, I think because it is so airy and you need to give it enough time to spring. And so if you laden it down with sauce, which I think people do that all the time. And actually, I now make my husband do the sauce because I have a heavy hand. I just do, and I just can't control myself because I actually love a saucy pie. But he knows to paint it and maybe-
SU: [inaudible 00:30:19].
HA: ... do a little bit more. And then the toppings too, cheese included, you really have to have a light hand and really let the crust have its own time to shine.
SU: What about the cheese itself? Speaking of cheese, and Jesse, I know we tested two different things.
JS: Yeah, you and I went through different cheese iterations.
HA: Oh, yes.
SU: Yeah, is there pros versus cons for a fresh mozzarella versus the regular kind?
HA: I really believe in a Polly-O style product for certain recipes, and-
SU: And by that you mean like a low moisture?
JS: A block.
HA: Yeah, low moisture, just almost like mass-produced block, because it's a consistent product. Whereas if you go to [inaudible 00:31:01] and get a beautiful artisanal fresh curd like round, it can differ day to day, hour by hour, depending on what the farmer said to the cow. So, I like a Polly-O product really for its integrity and its reliability. And especially when it comes to pizza, it's inability to leach additional water. So, whether it's shredded or cut from a block, we've noticed no real differences..
JS: Yeah, it kind of works the same.
HA: It works the same way. There's a place and time of course for a beautiful, fresh, handmade or hand-shaped burrata or mozzarella product, but this is not that time, I don't think. And I don't know. Now my daughter, I mean, we live in New York, land of great pizza, and she only wants this pizza these days.
SU: What?
JS: Aw.
HA: I know.
JS: I love it.
SU: That's great.
HA: I know. I'm all like, okay, it's like it is an easy recipe, but it's not exactly low lift.
JS: Sure.
HA: So I was like, no. I was like, you can get it when I feel like making it. But it is so tasty and frankly, I always regret not making a double recipe, because for the three of us, the two pies go very quickly. And then I'm like, oh, for all that time and effort, it's gone. So next time I'll make times two. So yes, it's just a great dough in its performance, but also in its taste.
JS:Thank you, Hana.
SU: Wow.
JS: Yeah.
SU: Hana, thank you for coming.
JS: Yeah, thank you.
HA: Thank you for having me. Loved being here, love Bake Club so very much. And I promise to try all of your recipes in the intended state.
SU: Oh, that's a big statement, we'll hold you to it.
JS: Shilpa, are you ready to play a pizza trivia game?
SU: I don't know if I'm ready, but I am willing to try.
JS: Okay, great. You love pizza. I love pizza.
SU: This is true.
JS: Okay, I'm going to ask you some pizza trivia. Question number one, where was pizza first invented? I could give you some-
SU: Naples.
JS: Okay. I was going to give you some choices, but you picked the right one. Okay, great. Wow, one for one.
SU: This is the only one I get right.
JS: Okay, great. Wow.
SU: Move forward.
JS: Okay, next one.
SU: Okay.
JS: In what country is banana curry pizza popular?
SU: What?
JS: In Colombia, the UK, Sweden, or Turkey?
SU: Whoa. Banana curry?
JS: Mm-hmm.
SU: I'm going to go with UK.
JS: Sweden, Sweden.
SU: Banana, like ripe banana? I'm sorry, Sweden.
JS: Okay, [inaudible 00:33:52].
SU: We appreciate many other things about you. Okay.
JS: How many billion-
SU: [inaudible 00:33:58].
JS: ... pizzas are sold in the United States every year? 1.5, 3, 5, or 20?
SU: Five billion pizzas.
JS: You know it's three, but.
SU: What? No, you're not serious.
JS: That two billion really tripped you up.
SU: Wait, that's it?
JS: This is a B, billion.
SU: I know, but I thought that's what everybody eats in America.
JS: That's true. That's true. All right, okay, one.
SU: Yeah, oh, I'm disappointed. Americans, come on, do better.
JS: Okay. You'll like this one.
SU: Okay, okay.
JS: How many recipes with the word pizza in the title are on BonAppétit.com, including this one? 15, 22, 46 or 68?
SU: No, that's too hard.
JS: I don't even know what I would guess, actually.
SU: The second option, whatever that was.
JS: 22?
SU: Yeah, 22.
JS: 68.
SU: No way.
JS: Yeah, and some of the hits here include Jim Lahey's no knead pizza dough.
SU: Oh, sure.
JS: Dessert pizza.
SU: Is there bananas on the dessert pizza?
JS: I cannot give you that information. And it's your pizza piroshki.
SU: Oh, pizza piroshki. Oh, still, 68 is a big number.
JS:That's a lot, yeah.
SU: Oh, damn, okay.
JS: All right, okay.
SU: I told you I was only going to get that one thing right.
JS: Well, yeah, you started too strong.
SU: Okay.
JS: Okay, and finally, where was Hawaiian Pizza, you know the one with ham and pineapple, invented? Canada, Hawaii, California, or Mexico?
SU: I think the Canadians are a little too sensible for this. California.
JS: It's Canada.
SU: No, no.
JS: It's Canada.
SU: Wait, really?
JS: Yeah.
SU: I didn't know that.
JS: Well, they got good ham. They got good cured meat up there.
SU: Oh, that's true, that's true, that's true. Oh, I thought it was some California Pizza Kitchen nonsense.
JS: I could see that too. Yeah, yeah.
SU: Yeah. Oh, oh, damn.
JS: Well anyways, you did great.
SU: Thank you, this was a good quiz.
Jesse Szewczyk: We learned a lot.
SU: Yeah. 68 pizza recipes on BonAppétit.com.
Jesse Szewczyk: Yeah, that's a lot.
SU: But you all know which is the one to make, ours.
That's it for this month's edition of BA Bake Club.
JS: Shilpa, do you want to talk a little bit about the next Bake Club recipe?
SU: Okay. February's Bake Club recipe uses a lot of dairy, like over three pounds of dairy. So, get your lactates ready, everyone. We'll be making a basque cheesecake, which is quite delightful on its own. And then we gild the lily by making this version, tiramisu flavored.
JS: Any special equipment or ingredients that bakers should have on hand?
SU: Yes to both. You will need a springform pan, and then for special ingredient, you will need instant espresso powder.
JS: Not coffee.
SU: Not coffee. Thank you, Jesse. So those two things, and you'll be good to go. And the aforementioned three pounds of dairy.
Well, Bake Clubbers, you can find the recipe and all our Bake Club recipes at BonAppétit.com/BakeClub. And then once you bake this tiramisu basque cheesecake, send us your pictures and questions. There are so many different ways to get in touch with us.
JS: So, you can comment on the recipe on the Epicurious app or on the Bon Appétit website, or email us at BakeClub@BonAppétit.com. And if you've made it and loved it, rate and review the recipe on our site.
SU: Thank you for listening to this month's edition of BA Bake Club. We're your hosts, Shilpa Uskokovic.
JS: And Jesse Szewczyk.
SU: Michele O'Brien is our senior producer.
JS: Pran Bandi and Jake Lummus are our studio engineers.
SU: This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macro Sound.
JS: Our executive producer is Jordan Bell.
SU: Chris Bannon is Condé Nast's Head of Global Audio.
JS: And if you liked this show, leave us a rating and review and hit that follow button so you never miss an episode of BA Bake Club or Dinner SOS.
SU: And if you're not already part of the club, head to BonAppétit.com/BakeClub to find all the information you need to join.
JS: Next week on Dinner SOS, Kendra and I joined Chris to talk about the joys and challenges of cooking for one.
Originally Appeared on Bon Appétit
